Moderation and Censorship

Comment by Bruce Meyer on October 11, 2011 at 8:18pm

Gee, I sure do feel for those who are "uncomfortable" with the remarks of others.  It is absurd to think that a thinking person would actually leave this site because of something said here.  Nothing I have read here would cause a rational person to do so.  Keep it as it is - it is a good way to filter out those who are made to feel so "uncomfortable."

Comment by Bruce Meyer on October 11, 2011 at 8:21pm

I added before I intended to.  To moderate so everyone is nice will drive the life right out of this place.  No one can be silenced unless they choose to be.  No moderation required; here or anywhere thinking people share their thoughts.

Comment by Marjorie S Rawson on October 11, 2011 at 8:32pm

One of the pitfalls of the written word here is what you stated in your code of conduct : Like email, text-based forum messages lose a lot of the nuance that face-to-face communication provides. So members should be sure to give the "benefit of the doubt" to others intentions when interacting. No personal attacks and no inappropriate personal or adult topics or behavior, please.

I have noticed a bit of "attitude" and been accused of having it myself. Its really hard to accurately share my thoughts and feelings via the written word. That's why I'm a visual Artist! I really appreciate what you are doing here Connie. Its very valuable to me and many others. Artist's are a passionate bunch..no doubt about that. 

Comment by Kimberly Merck- Moore on October 11, 2011 at 8:39pm

This is I think, a very relevant post.  While I have done a LOT of stalking over the past eight months or so, there have been a few instances where I have posted.  I have learned a tremendous amount over these past months, and have referred more than a few people to your site due to that amount of information.  I can see how things get boring after discussing only tents and display options once you are past all of that, and you figure out what works.  But, I think what the veterans here are truly missing, is that they were all in this same place at some point.  Except, when they started twenty or so  years ago, things were much more simple.  I suspect they would have been grateful for a site such as this, just as I have been.  I admit, it has been hard to not feel insulted when the veterans have made comments referring to how 95% of the people on this site are not "artists", and never will be.  Have all of these "artists" had exceptional work their entire lives, or did they have a bit of a learning curve like most people do?  Do they go back twenty years or so and wince at some of the things they put out?  If not, good for them.  Most people work for years to develop their talent, whatever it is.  If they are seriously committed, they may become amazing one day through hard work and perserverance.  Talent is relevant here as well, make no mistake about it, but to be a full time artist for me, is definately more than a forty-hour work week as well.  Lots of work, and devotion to what you love. 

Perhaps some have had mentors?  Could it be that this site substitutes mentoring? Did the old masters not mentor their students for years before they were able to stand on their own?

One thing I have learned in the few shows that I have been in, is that most artists are kind, helpful people.  I am always amazed at the friendliness and kindness I have witnessed at the few shows I have attended.  I believe in such a thing as Karma, and as a result, I try to help as many people as I can, since I have had so much help. 

On opinions, whether politcal or otherwise, as the say, they are like @#$%*&^#, everyone has one. That's the great thing about America, at least for now, we can express them.  But there is no need to be said "@#$%*&^#".  It is your choice, but why be a jerk about it?  As far as politics go, we have lots to talk about right now, as the things going on are unprecedented.  Can we discuss them like adults, without the insults?  Just wondering.

I think you have an amazing site, Connie.  I also think everyone in this particular line of work needs thick skin.  Art is just so damn subjective, and if you want to be successful, not for sissies.

Comment by Melanie Rolfes on October 11, 2011 at 9:01pm

To do art fairs and to make a living doing art, not just a hobby, you have to have thick skin.  There is a lot to learn on AFI.  If someone leaves just because their feelings were hurt then that is to bad for them.    You can't make everyone happy Connie, so I suggest you make yourself happy first and go from there. 

Comment by Connie Mettler on October 11, 2011 at 9:04pm

Well, thanks for that sweet thought, Melanie! I love it.

Comment by Melanie Rolfes on October 11, 2011 at 9:34pm

NP Connie.  I think a lot of women are people pleasers and we need to stop it and try to please ourselves more.  Atleast that is something I am trying ;)

Comment by Munks on October 11, 2011 at 11:00pm

I do get tired of the backchanneling nonsense.

I don't know what happened to bring this about. It may be about me, it may not. I don't think I did anything controversial here lately since the AFI sticker thing kind of bordering on Disney copyright infringement. I don't think even they caught that post yet, but they might have. Otherwise, I don't know what this is about. For some reason though, I think it doesn't matter where it came from because it frequently comes from the same old mentality: "Someone pissed me off/hurt my feelings/made someone I know angry/or seems contrary to my agenda".

Nonetheless, this issue has spun 'round and 'round on this site for several years now. I've said a lot about it and people either know where I stand on this censorship issue, or they at least think they do - many of them mistakenly.

However tonight I was kicking back listening to old, old, old, Delta Blues music (kfmg991.org - check out the streaming service they provide) and I read and re-read Connie's numbered points. Yep, I re-read them. Know why? Because when you re-read a point you have better odds of understanding what is being said. For fun I am re-writing her two points and I just want to take a little look at them.

Before I do so. . . . Please note and fully understand you do not have to read what I or anyone else writes here. You are not obligated and you are free to look at some other post or go to sleep or find a sentence out of context somewhere to bitch about or write notes to this site complaining about what's on it. You are not obligated to read any further.

Ok?

Ok.

So Connie's first point was:

1. Moderation that expects everyone to "be nice" and is enforced, or

2. a site where members can say what they want and effectively silence others.

Connie's first point I believe originated after the great Schlafly incident about a year ago in St. Louis. A situation I was proud to be part of because I said then as now - it is not an artist's responsibility to determine the authenticity of anyone's work during a show. I meant it then and I mean it now. The big question here is "Who?" Who is the "nice meter". "Who will watch the watchmen?" as they used to say in Rome. I'm not going to bore you good people with more on this issue.

Her second point - "Is true censorship a site where members can say what they want and effectively silence others"? Here is where I just want to spend a little time.

(Deep breath in, exhale . . . and let the fingers fly. . . .)

It's all about "motivation".

There are several artists missing from the site. I was pleased, really pleased to see Ron's recent posts lately. Otherwise we are missing many writers. Some I respect, some I do not. But . . . I love(d) it when they posted. Holly Olinger is smarter and more passionate about her views (albeit twisted and just plain wrong occasionally) than most of the people I have ever met in my life. Linda Anderson is a sharp writer. I haven't seen William in years and yes, I do miss him. He had more wit in his little finger than I see in a week of "civil" post-ers here. Where's my friend Paul? Warren? Lynda? Leo? Hippie Jack? Stipek? Amy and Phil? All good artists with solid opinions they have not been sharing lately. I love it when Carolyn Kwas or Lorie M. post something. I go to read it just to see what angle they are using and how they are expressing themselves. We need more of those people, people like Karen Cooper who are really trying to make their views known - ( I know I am forgetting many people and I do apologize.), people who not only communicate well, but are able to back themselves up with a point - not a feeling, or some drippy platitude. We are business people that are artists, not a bunch of wacko's in a field with white tents holding hands and singing (you guessed it) "Kumbaya".

Comment by Munks on October 11, 2011 at 11:01pm

It's all about "motivation".

I think that people who bitch and moan behind the scenes - or want to throw their weight around or want to browbeat people that do not agree with - not their opinions per se, but the actual right and responsibility of others to voice their opinions with some semblance of logic and literary device - are the ones who effectively silence others. I know many of you do not want to offend so and so because you won't get into his crappy little show or her little clique - I say these are the people who should be banned. People who do not have the testicular fortitude to stand up for what they believe in - so they connive and send emails and build alliances and play little junior high political games. These are the ones that should be booted.

It's all about "motivation".

I have said it here so many times and I will say it as long as I still have an account here - if you have something to say - SAY IT and defend your position. Who knows you may actually convert people to your view or position - althought probably not because you are a more than likely a behind-the-scenes manipulator, but you never know.

I am tired of people already being silenced because of people coming in here with an agenda. I maintain that if you can't state your position and defend it without alligator tears and offended feelings, you shouldn't be here. You shouldn't be in this business either. You'll get eaten alive out there if you cannot handle this website.

It's all about "motivation".

Lastly, yes I know I go on and on frequently - but have you noticed the news lately? There are people demonstrating all over the country because of how passionate they feel about what is happening around them. Soldiers are dying to protect our freedom. Many people don't have jobs and are barely getting by. People are going to jail. Millions and millions of dollars are being wasted and squandered. Our industry is changing before our eyes and we have foxes guarding the henhouses. Times our tough, not irritatingly tough, really tough. 16% of the country approve of Congress' behavior. 16% !!! That means 84% think they suck. I don't care which side of the aisle you are on. The banks took the TARP money. Anyone know what they did with it? Our laws have gone nuts. We have a school superintendent here in the midwest who got a sweet, sweet, sweetheart deal in her contract just in case she gets fired. No one opposed it. No one spoke up. Too civil. Seen your tax rates lately? How about insurance? Booth fees? Jury fees? Seen a bunch of really crappy imports in the booth next to you at a fine arts show you paid a premium booth fee for? We are trying to run businesses in the middle of all this for our livelihood and for our families.

And yet some people let a few words get to them sooooo much that they have to have a hissy fit because someone "offended" them. Grow up, re-read the Constitution, get over your "offended" feelings, buck up and defend your position or go do something else somewhere else. We are honest artists doing art fairs and festivals. If you don't fit in with that model and want to monitor, lurk, gossip and blacklist -  then go away because you are degrading the site and all the artists that have ever posted here. This industry is changing very quickly and you should probably focus on your own self and not others.

So "No!". No monitoring, no censoring. If something bothers you, speak up (and this is very key): defend your position. You might win the argument, you might lose. If you care, speak up - no more backchanneling. No more complaining. Participate in the arena of ideas or go home!

"Censorship is the bloody agar upon which Mediocrity thrives . . . dumb ass." - Munks' Nanna circa 1974 during a fist fight with security outside a Frank Zappa concert in Buffalo, NY.

Comment by Alison Thomas on October 12, 2011 at 7:18am

Amen to Munks.  Once upon a time I was dating a person who was a skier.  So I had to learn to ski if I wanted to spend any time with him.  The first few times he was very nice to me, stood with me in the rental line, helped me buckle my boots, which at the time were those side buckles that were really nasty to buckle while standing on two slippery boards.  About the fourth time we went out and were getting ready to hit the slopes I asked him if he would buckle my boots.  He looked at me and said "One of these days you're going to have to learn to buckle your own damn boots" and skied off.  Boy was I pissed.  It took me thirty minutes and several butt on snow incidents but I got them buckled.  Today, if it weren't for my bad knees, I can go skiing anytime I want all by myself.  Because I can buckle my own damn boots.

 

Point is - being nice is not always nice.  Yes the newbies need the discussions on credit cards, tents, etc.  But the more experienced people here need more substance as well.  And with substance comes disagreement.  And with disagreement comes learning.  Not only learning other opinions but exploring and testing my own.

 

There are those who say that before we speak we should ask ourselves, "Is it true, is it kind, is it necessary"  I say two out of three is sufficient.  I want to hear true and necessary, even if it isn't kind.

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